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comments on post 80649475 [closed] |
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Do you ever feel that you have to perform for the benefit of others? Are they expecting you to camp it up, and become a caricature of yourself? Some of my gay friends seem unable to take off the mask when in public (I guess it's a form of self-defence that we all have to a greater or lesser degree), and I sometimes wonder what they are really like underneath - what they are like when alone, without an audience. [Sat 24 Aug 12:54 BST] Richard Well spotted, Richard. Because the depiction of gay males on TV is roughly 98 percent of the sort you describe, with possibly Stephen Fry the principal exception, this is what the heterosexual world has come to expect. There's only one way to get to know your gay friends with more accuracy, and that is to talk one to one. I remember vividly one gay man's description of walking into a "straight" bar for the first time, and being astonished that men were actually looking at the people they were talking to, and not ending each exchange with a punchline. Says it all :) (Thanks to Rex for that one.) I've had doubts about this post. Let me assure the players, especially dave, that no criticism was intended. The quotations were taken from the public tagboard, but I'll happily delete the whole lot if requested. [Sat 24 Aug 16:28 BST] Peter Delete? You speak your mind on how you feel on your website and you talk about delete? Like you are not entitled to your feelings? Or people can't respect your opinion? I really don't know what upsets me more: your view on gay life as you experience it or the fact you are willing to perform self-censoring because people ask to. One thing triggers me though: can you explain why you feel you would have earned more money had you been straight? Discrimination on promotions? You would have had another job? Spend less money? I'm puzzled and intruiged. [Sat 24 Aug 16:48 BST] Martijn ten Napel ow.. I noticed something of a language error in the previous comment: When I mean upset bu your view on gay life, I mean the content of your experience, what you have to go through and not your opinion (of course) [Sat 24 Aug 16:50 BST] Martijn ten Napel I meant discrimination on promotions. I guess you could call it the "pink ceiling". The censoring part is simply that I've dragged to the front some material that by now would have been buried unseen, and also that as with many posts, if the players don't wish to be quoted or described then I don't. It's only fair. Darren comments also on Dark Informer. [Sat 24 Aug 17:02 BST] Peter I meant every word when i said it's great to be gay. Whether I've 'convinced' myself of this over the years or not i don't care. I'm fully confident and happy in my 'gay life'. I seem to be a lot happier than a lot of my straight friends and colleagues who all seem to follow a very restricted route through life. I know exactly what peter was saying when he said he felt like his sexuality was a handicap and a stigma. I worked down a coal mine in Northumberland for 3 years after leaving school at 16. Before I even had sex with another man (but after I'd had it with a woman) I told my parents about their future prospects about being grandparents (v v v v slim). This didn't go down too well. My Dad suggested we all go and see a 'doctor' etc, etc, blah, blah, blah. They didn't kick me out but certainly made me feel like I was less than perfect. Ouch! What was life gonna be like now? Well, ok, actually as it turns out. It breaks my heart that Peter feels lonely sometimes. But it doesn't worry me that it may happen to me in the future. As an only child (good god, no wonder my parents were upset!) I've always had an ability to meet and make friends. I'm not what I would call attractive but I'm a lot better looking than some of my ugly friends yet they seem to be surrounded by great circles of friends. Of course that doesn't mean that they're not lonely but hopefully they're not. As for relatives coming round to visit, had Peter been straight, well, think about it. Your wifes mother who hates you, her sisters who are probably like Patty and Selma, their kids who get jam and chocolate verywhere etc etc. Lucky escape if you ask me. I'm also distressed to think that Peter would have had a brilliant career if he'd been one for hosting cocktail parties with his wife. It's wrong and it must stop. Luckily for me I'm a lazy fucker with absolutely no interest in 'progressing' in my measly paid office job which for 90% of the time bores me tears. My lack of ambition has been a bit of a saviour to me when I look around at folk I know who get v v v miserable when they can't match their ambitions. Aim low and be a happy underachiever like me! Anyway this all sounds a bit frivolous upon re-reading but I don't care. I realise that ones location bears greatly on their quality of life and I think I chose wisely when I decided to live in this hell hole. I'm sorry my views upset some people but I'm not changing them. Now, who's for another cocktail girls? N.B. remember when Larry Grayson was the only poof you saw on telly? I know it's a bit annoying to be represented on TV by screaming young things camping it up but I'm afraid that nowadays (in city life) they are the majority. Anyone see the two coppers kiss on 'The Bill' on Thursday night. Whats the world coming to! And them not even slightly camp!! [Sat 24 Aug 20:01 BST] dave Growing up in a time when having an alternative lifestyle is a lot easier, I have to say that I too have never really experienced any restriction on my work or social life. However, like dave I am not really in a high-flying profession so I can't really comment. I would just like to explain that when I said I was intimidated by the scene, is was to do with the obsession with body image. As I'm not lean and muscular it affects my self-confidence. It can often appear that unless you look the part, no-one is interested in finding out you're a nice guy. This certainly does not mean I am any less proud that I am gay. [Sat 24 Aug 20:36 BST] Darren Peter, Do you think when you would have been like 24 at the start of your career that the pink ceiling would have been lifted a few floors? I'm 31, pretty independant, not that advanced career wise on one hand and very advanced on the other (depends on how you look at 'professional career'), but being gay hasn't had any repurcussions so far. Nor do I have the feeling it will, unless I aim at being the CEO of a Shell or Unilever. But then again, I live in Holland. [Sat 24 Aug 21:22 BST] Martijn ten Napel Some very interesting viewpoints. Thanks for all, and glad no-one's nose was put out of joint for being featured here. I'm aware of two things. One is that it's all too easy to blame one single feature for all of your woes, be it height, weight shape of nose and so on. I hope my little piece makes intelligent allowance for that. And secondly, that things are much, much easier nowadays for young gay men and women. Much of that came from the work of my people quietly in the background, coupled with the high profiles of some very open gays in entertainment, politics, etc. In summary, would I have had it any other way? You betcha! It's a generation thing. At least I never committed suicide, as Alan Turing did. Or found myself in jail, like Oscar Wilde. [Sat 24 Aug 21:55 BST] Peter It's not all that great being straight either Pete with men expecting this and that of you and the obvious things such as cooking cleaning etc. though fortunately not all men are like that as I'm sure not all gay men or lesbian females are there for others entertainment.Having a relaxed time up here and soaking up all this beautiful landscape up here. I'm more interested in that at the moment than people which is quite refreshing after the way I was feeling before I left Edinburgh. Been scavenging from old derelict houses and have acquired an old Victorian fireplace with all the origional tiles in tact as well as many other useful things like a fire extinguister, cat basket, brush and shovel and paraffin lamp.Please get in touch as we do miss alot of the good people like yourself. alot of love to you Pete, Sandra, Johnny Laura and (the slimmer) Cherry or Gay or not gay you are one of the most human beings I have met in a long time and I feel privilaged for that [Sun 25 Aug 15:24 BST] sandra Thank you for that, Sandra. I'm simply not capable of saying more. Love, P [Sun 25 Aug 17:03 BST] Peter "Me, I don't think it's great to be gay at all. " Me, neither. And as I think every year when all the madness of "Gay Pride Week" comes around, I don't see any reason to be proud of it either (well, of any preferences for sex). Certainly as a teenager being gay was a damned nuisance. [Sun 25 Aug 19:44 BST] Albert Thanks for that, Albert. I was beginning to think I was a lone voice. Gay Pride is a concept which eludes me also. But then so do all the nationalistic "prides". At no point was I trying to say that being gay is in any way wrong, or inferior to the other, just that it's much more difficult. Some people cope with living in a highly-stigmatised minority better than do others. One of my standard put-downs when being criticised by heterosexual acquaintances is to turn the situation back onto them, and say something like, "If you were gay yourself, you wouldn't last five minutes." Me, all I ever wanted was to be ordinary. Fat chance. [Sun 25 Aug 22:21 BST] Peter My $.02 worth. Oh yes. Many gay men are lonely, particularly if they're not alone. Some of the most lonely men I have known seldom spent two days without a new lover. And it never brought them happiness. There's a perception out there that to be a good gay man you have to be obsessed with body image and have a different lover every weekend. Not true. There used to be a perception that you had to mince around, talk in Palare and walk like Sybil Thorndike. Equally bollocks. The portrayal of homosexual men in the media is getting better, but it's still the stereotypes that grab the attention, and that make those of us who don't conform - who never will confrom - feel uncomfortable. That's part of the source of my discomfort with Pride. It's been hugely influential. It's part of the movement that allows me to live my life quietly and happily. But it also seems to perpetuate the more outrageous stereotypes. It celebrates diversity, but it seems to celebrate extremes of diversity. Perhaps that's the main function. So that people will look at their gay friends and think "I'm lucky - none of my gay friends walk around dressed as the village people". Or perhaps we'd be better served with a gay pride parade that nobody made an effort for other than to turn out. A crowd of people walking hand in hand in hand. Dunno. [Mon 26 Aug 09:27 BST] alan Or - even better - some future time when gay is such a small deal that no-one gives it much of a thought. It's getting that way even now, with the late teen/early twenties cohort. And this is music to my ears. Strangely, young heterosexuals seem much more comfortable with oneself than do young gays. [Mon 26 Aug 10:20 BST] Peter It seems a shame that someone who can attract the number of readers you do (and thoughtful comments to this post that you have) can appear to feel so at odds with the way they are. The biggest crime perpetrated by society is the idea of "normal". It scars all of us in some way, some more than others, and at the end of the day serves no useful function. [Wed 28 Aug 23:52 BST] Euan Thks for your comment, Euan. Whole books could be written on these matters, and - perhaps not strangely - have been! Nevertheless it's fascinating to collect here such a number of voices, even if most are saying much the same thing. A man from Mars, reading the above, would indeed wonder what on earth I was concerned about, so rosy does the garden seem to be. But there are voices (thankfully) missing from this comment box - the voices of bigotry, of hate, and of murderous intent. But they are all around, and we musn't drop our vigil for a moment. I would only feel at odds with the way I am if I felt that this or any aspect of myself had ever done harm to others, and on that my slate is clean. But homosexuality is still very highly stigmatised, no matter what any commentators opine. [Thu 29 Aug 05:13 BST] Peter |